Watercooler conversations: Vivianne Bendermacher
Woman in tech. It has almost become a brand gimmick, where companies are using their female colleagues as free marketing for the company. Let’s not forget, that a few years ago there were almost no women in tech. Just a handful of pioneers who had a ‘knack for tech’ and were paving the way for many others to follow. One of those pioneers is Vivianne Bendermacher, Managing Director of Techionista and an icon in the (Dutch) tech world. She speaks at many events and is a recurring face on the Dutch daily tv show ‘RTL Boulevard’ as a tech specialist.
Vivianne founded Techionista in 2017 together with Tamira van Roeyen when they realized they lacked IT and tech skills. A problem shared by many women that would soon be bound to lose their jobs because of automation, robotization, and digitalization. What initially started as a passion project became a beacon of knowledge and a strong community for the many women that were looking to learn new skills that could ensure them a job in the future. Today the Techionista academy educates and coaches women towards a future-proof job in IT and technology by offering (online) courses with a great team of men, women, and business partners, they have (re)trained over 700 women to work in IT and Technology.
Techionista believes that all women can have a successful career in IT and Tech, regardless of their background, and therefore strives for more (gender) diversity in the labor market. A belief that’s shared by Clay: A great reason to ask Vivianne about her take on ‘Women in tech’ and vision for the future.
At what moments are you most proud to have founded Techionista?
‘At so many times! For example, when I hear that a Techionista alumna has taken a job at a cool company and is doing well in her new Data & AI career. Or when a new business track starts with all the talents recruited by us who can make a career switch thanks to the job guarantee at a business partner. Or when I see a Techionista alumna at one of our speed dates, where talents can meet companies, sitting at the hiring table herself. Or in short, when we see that what we do has made a difference in someone's life. Then I am really proud that it all happened because we once started this company.’
The Netherlands is one of the countries that have a low number of women working in tech, do you think that has to do with the stereotype women are ‘care-takers’ instead of ‘risk-takers’?
‘I think it has to do with so many things. Yes: it has to do with stereotypes; which by the way do exist in men towards women, but they are also in us women ourselves. It also has to do with persistent misconceptions: that working in IT or tech wouldn't be creative, for example; or is only fun for nerds. And it also has to do with the negative spiral that comes from the fact that there are still few women in IT and tech. Because that means there are few female role models, and that in turn leads to little new recruitment. And unfortunately, it also has a lot to do with the so-called confirmation bias, which means that people tend to hire people who look like them. If there are few women in the hiring position, there is also a greater chance that fewer women will be hired.
At Clay, we have more women joining which we are excited about, but the majority is still male. Do you have any tips to help close the gender gap?
‘Oh, that’s a hard one, because I don’t know what you’re already doing. But in general, I can say: make sure you hire team members and not individuals. I still hear too often that people hire "the best candidate" and don't pay attention to someone's gender. I think that's wrong. For example, if a team consists of only 30-something white males, it's a really good idea to add someone of color, with different age and a different gender. After all, science shows that diversity leads to quality. How to do that? Start with someone on the hiring committee with a profile that you’re still missing a lot. In this example: make sure there’s a woman on the hiring committee. So how to attract more women? The general tip: make sure to make your female role models visible. Not just in women groups within your company, but definitely outside of that too: on LinkedIn for instance.’
Women need to learn the right skills to work in technology, but do you also think in some cases technology can benefit from a ‘female touch’?
‘Sure! Although I don’t really think in terms of ‘female touch’, because if you for instance if you look at communicative skills - which people often think women are better at than men - I think that’s not a ‘female’ skill. I have seen women with very good and very bad communication skills. However, I think it’s safe to say that women are more likely to have a background in fields where communication was very important, just to stay with this example, and so women tend to have developed this skill better due to their previous work experience. You can certainly take advantage of that experience.’
Do you feel the term ‘women in tech’ is over-used and therefore loses its strength?
‘Tough question! I think it depends on the context. I still think that sometimes it is very important to dwelling on the phenomenon of women in tech. Simply because there are still too few women in tech to speak of a healthy balance. And because there is still too little diversity, that still brings inequality to the world of tech. There is still a gender pay gap, to name one example. I speak to companies every day who say things are getting better in the business, but that women advancing toward management are a rarity. As long as this is the case, we’re not done and we should address ‘women in tech’. However… Ideally, I would like to see it become even more about the content within the context of women in tech. So when you give a woman in tech the stage, don't ask about how she combines raising children with her busy job as a data scientist, for example. Ask her about her latest project. Make ‘women in tech’ less about the women and more about the tech, so to speak.’
At what age should technology be a part of a girls’ education according to you?
‘The sooner the better. Stereotypes arise in a child’s mind around the age of five. if a child has figured out by that age that tech is something for boys, it's very hard to win her back. If a girl has "figured out" at a young age that math is not for her, she is going to confirm herself in that and will almost certainly not choose a STEM (science, technology, engineering, match) course of study. I'm not saying girls should choose STEM subjects en masse, but they should be the real option to do so. Because children are pigeonholed at a very early age, it is very difficult to do so, and we adults are to blame. From kindergarten onwards, girls have already given the princess coloring page, and boys the one of the fire department. That doesn't help. So be aware of gender bias.’
What would you say are the biggest challenges women in tech have today?
‘I work on the edge of tech, of course: I make sure women enter that world, after thorough retraining at Techionista Academy. But what I hear from them is that they are still not taken entirely seriously. They indicate that their male peers are more likely to be stared at when asked a technical question; even though they sometimes know the answer better. This requires a cultural change and that takes time.’
Do you have any female role models aspiring women-techies can look into for inspiration?
Oh, I have so many! Actually all Techionista alumni. They have retrained and are now doing awesome things in Data and AI. And I had the pleasure to interview 6 role models for The Techionista Podcast. You can find that podcast in all your favorite podcast apps. They are all amazing and their stories are so very inspiring. You can find the podcast here.
Are women having trouble with personal branding because of imposter syndrome and if so how can they overcome this according to you?I do think women sometimes have to fight the impostor beast, but in all honesty, I also feel that sometimes impostor syndrome is being used as an excuse to stay in a comfortable position. If you REALLY feel impostor syndrome is holding you back: write down all your successes: it helps to show yourself you ARE doing a good job. Stop yourself as soon as you try to downplay success and ask people you trust to point out when you are downplaying success. And don’t be too hard on yourself: a little bit of impostor syndrome might help you to excel in what you do.
Do you have advice for girls/women who are thinking about switching gears and working in technology?
The first piece of advice: know what you like to do. We have lots of alumni who are now successfully working in IT and tech and love to share what they are doing now and how they got there. Their stories can help you to find out what you would like to do. So I would say: just reach out to them via LinkedIn. Most of them would love to help. The second piece of advice: just do it. What do you have to lose?
Thank you, Vivianne, for your take on this important topic and your advice!
If you are looking to change your career or are interested in Techionista’s awesome initiatives, check out their website.
In our ‘Watercooler conversations’ articles, we will speak with key people working in different departments of companies similar to Clay. They are technology-oriented, usually based in the Netherlands, and great company culture is non-negotiable. Expect conversations about technology, company culture, mental health at work, tips for expats, and more!